Chapter 9: The Last Debate
Jacob's Thoughts (12/17/16)
This chapter is a sort of spiritual successor of "The Council of Elrond" in two regards: first and most obviously, it involves a long, round-about debate that functions primarily to justify a foregone conclusion--in this case, that they must send an expeditionary force to Mordor in order to buy the Ring-Bearer some time. It's all pretty perfunctory.
But this chapter also spiritually follows Elrond when Aragorn declares, "Let none now reject the counsels of Gandalf, whose long labours against Sauron come at last to their test. Nonetheless I do not yet claim to command any man. Let others choose as they will" (192). Aragorn urges the others to Mordor, but he adamantly refuses to order anyone to do so. In this moment, I cannot help but recall Elrond's parting counsel to the Fellowship in "The Ring Goes South":
For he could just as easily make an awful one. As Legolas recalls of their adventures on the Paths of the Dead: "In that hour I looked on Aragorn and thought how great and terrible a Lord he might have become in the strength of his will, had he taken the Ring to himself. Not for naught does Mordor fear him" (186). Tolkien's close friend CS Lewis had written that the reason the Lord chose Paul is because only those truly capable of great evil are likewise truly capable of great good; Nietzsche of all people, likewise said, "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws," and Aragorn has claws indeed.
Nor do I mention Nietzsche arbitrarily: "Strength of will" was one of his key terms, one that was heavily abused and exploited by the Nazis to justify their worst atrocities. Tolkien here seems to indicate that there is nothing inherently wrong with "strength of will"...but there isn't anything inherently right about it, either. The question is not whether we should or should not have strength of will, but for what purpose we shall exercise it, whether in the cause of domination or of freedom; it is equally important to Tolkien that Aragorn understand that distinction, too. Having recently survived the horrors of WWII, these were not academic questions for him at all.
Ben's Thoughts (1/6/17)
This is another placeholder chapter, and has the awkward structure of being divided into two parts - first Legolas and Gimli's entrance into the city and their story told to Merry and Pippin of what they've been doing since "Grey Company" at the beginning of the book; and second, the titular "debate," which turns more into Gandalf lecturing than anyone actually debating, about how best to commit the forces of Gondor and Rohan going forward.
The debate is not particular interesting, in my opinion. Gandalf is in effect informing Imrahil and Eomer what the reader (and Aragorn) already knows: essentially that the struggle is hopeless unless Frodo destroys the Ring. His plan is to distract Sauron by pretending that Aragorn is the new "Ringlord" and hoping that in his arrogance, Sauron will not watch his own land, but will focus entirely on the advancing host of Gondor. Imrahil laughs at the paltry numbers they can muster, and Gandalf replies that it's no laughing matter -- they are stalling to protect their lands and people.
Jacob is absolutely right that these concluding chapters mirror themes from "Fellowship" -- I caught an echo of Gandalf's counsel to Frodo from "The Shadow of the Past" in his words to the captains here. In "Shadow," Frodo laments that he has to be the one to bear the burden of the Ring, and live in such dark times. Gandalf replies, "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
Here, to the captains, he tells them to not be worried about the future, and instead focus on the present: "[I]t is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf here echoes the words of Christ: "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" (Matthew 6:34). Our responsibility is to what we can accomplish here in the present. Of course that involves reflections on the consequences of our actions, but fear of what may come generally results in paralysis in the now. Similarly, when Frodo gripes that he'd rather live in some more comfortable, past age, Gandalf reminds him that too much nostalgia about the past leads to a sense of hopelessness in the present. Instead, Frodo needed to latch on to that "terrible chance" that lead the good guys to the tenuous, but hopeful position they find themselves in during Book V.
In other news, Gimli and Legolas exchange some banter and tell a story. I've already expressed what I believe to be the very poor plotting of relegating this story to a few off-screen descriptions, just for the sake of a surprise twist when Aragorn disembarks from the Umbar fleet in "Battle of the Pelennor Fields," especially considering that in exchange we were subjected to the dreck of "Muster of Rohan" and "Ride of the Rohirrim."
I will note one interesting exchange, however: Gimli and Legolas both note the desolation of the city, both in terms of regression of mechanical and technological skill, and in the arts and beautiful aspects of the people and the city itself.
To that, the Elves, Tolkien, and I (a great trifecta, to be sure) know not the answer.
Eric's Thoughts (5/13/17)
As Ben points out, this chapter is awkwardly divided into two parts: one where Legolas and Gimli describe the behind-the-scenes employment of the ghosts, and another part where Gandalf, Aragon, and an elf-lord or two hang out in Aragon's tent and decide to launch a futile assault on Mordor to distract Sauron.
The first part I found tepid and yawn-inducing. Once again, Tolkien unravels his action scenes via flashback rather than in-the-moment narrative. Not effective. And the tale was less than compelling, and sometimes I had no idea what he was talking about. The gist I got was that the army of the dead scared the bad guys so much they jumped into the sea and drowned. Then, Aragon released the captives which then majestically rose up--at the last moment--to save Minas Tirith.
The hobbits are nothing more than foils for Gimli and Legolas to share that narrative, and offer no commentary or anything at all. The better narrative structure should have been to place this subplot in real-time alongside the siege of Gondor and cut back and forth between the two once or twice. Then, Aragon's sudden appearance wouldn't have been so deus-ex-machina-ish.
The second portion of the chapter was more interesting to me, and actually was one of my favorite chapters growing up in Return of the King besides the Scouring of the Shire. (And on a re-read, I think the latter half of this chapter still stands up as one of my favorite parts in the whole trilogy).
What happens in this excellent second act? Gandalf ponders the grim words of Denethor: You may triumph on the fields of the Pelennor for a day, but against the Power that has now arisen there is no victory.
Gandalf's reaction to Denethor's words is to not dismiss them as the ravings of a madman, but to analyze the words of a man that has seen the future and despaired. This chapter really develops the character of Gandalf--he does not pretend to be an all-knowing wizard that dictates what happens next, but instead reveals himself to be a shrewd logician.
In that regard, Gandalf spots a riddle in Denethor's words, unpacks the words, and arrives at a conclusion. The chapter guides the reader through Gandalf's thought processes on what they should do next: launch a futile assault of Mordor, likely to die, just so that Sauron's Eye is distracted from the real gambit. Really effective (and subtle) character development in my opinion.
Even more compelling, the characters themselves acknowledge this noble sacrifice does not fix everything, but merely offers a chance of a chance to rid the world of but one evil: "It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule."
Duty indeed. The stakes are clear. This is exactly why we are rooting for these characters.
This chapter is a sort of spiritual successor of "The Council of Elrond" in two regards: first and most obviously, it involves a long, round-about debate that functions primarily to justify a foregone conclusion--in this case, that they must send an expeditionary force to Mordor in order to buy the Ring-Bearer some time. It's all pretty perfunctory.
But this chapter also spiritually follows Elrond when Aragorn declares, "Let none now reject the counsels of Gandalf, whose long labours against Sauron come at last to their test. Nonetheless I do not yet claim to command any man. Let others choose as they will" (192). Aragorn urges the others to Mordor, but he adamantly refuses to order anyone to do so. In this moment, I cannot help but recall Elrond's parting counsel to the Fellowship in "The Ring Goes South":
"'The ring bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid...The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.'
'Faithless is he that says farewell when the road is darkness,' said Gimli.
'Maybe,' said Elrond, 'but let him not vow to walk in the dark, who has not seen the nightfall.'
'Yet sworn word may strengthen quaking heart,' said Gimli,
'Or break it,' said Elrond."At the time, I commented that, "For Elrond, the Fellowship must never be compelled to continue their Quest--they must all proceed of their own free will and choice, fully cognizant of their freedom to quit at any time. Otherwise, if they act only under compulsion, how are they any better or different than Sauron?" Aragorn I think understands the same, that it is only worth defeating Mordor if it is defeated by a free people. It is a small character beat, but one that I think indicates that Aragorn will in fact make a good and just King.
For he could just as easily make an awful one. As Legolas recalls of their adventures on the Paths of the Dead: "In that hour I looked on Aragorn and thought how great and terrible a Lord he might have become in the strength of his will, had he taken the Ring to himself. Not for naught does Mordor fear him" (186). Tolkien's close friend CS Lewis had written that the reason the Lord chose Paul is because only those truly capable of great evil are likewise truly capable of great good; Nietzsche of all people, likewise said, "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws," and Aragorn has claws indeed.
Nor do I mention Nietzsche arbitrarily: "Strength of will" was one of his key terms, one that was heavily abused and exploited by the Nazis to justify their worst atrocities. Tolkien here seems to indicate that there is nothing inherently wrong with "strength of will"...but there isn't anything inherently right about it, either. The question is not whether we should or should not have strength of will, but for what purpose we shall exercise it, whether in the cause of domination or of freedom; it is equally important to Tolkien that Aragorn understand that distinction, too. Having recently survived the horrors of WWII, these were not academic questions for him at all.
Ben's Thoughts (1/6/17)
This is another placeholder chapter, and has the awkward structure of being divided into two parts - first Legolas and Gimli's entrance into the city and their story told to Merry and Pippin of what they've been doing since "Grey Company" at the beginning of the book; and second, the titular "debate," which turns more into Gandalf lecturing than anyone actually debating, about how best to commit the forces of Gondor and Rohan going forward.
The debate is not particular interesting, in my opinion. Gandalf is in effect informing Imrahil and Eomer what the reader (and Aragorn) already knows: essentially that the struggle is hopeless unless Frodo destroys the Ring. His plan is to distract Sauron by pretending that Aragorn is the new "Ringlord" and hoping that in his arrogance, Sauron will not watch his own land, but will focus entirely on the advancing host of Gondor. Imrahil laughs at the paltry numbers they can muster, and Gandalf replies that it's no laughing matter -- they are stalling to protect their lands and people.
Jacob is absolutely right that these concluding chapters mirror themes from "Fellowship" -- I caught an echo of Gandalf's counsel to Frodo from "The Shadow of the Past" in his words to the captains here. In "Shadow," Frodo laments that he has to be the one to bear the burden of the Ring, and live in such dark times. Gandalf replies, "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
Here, to the captains, he tells them to not be worried about the future, and instead focus on the present: "[I]t is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf here echoes the words of Christ: "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" (Matthew 6:34). Our responsibility is to what we can accomplish here in the present. Of course that involves reflections on the consequences of our actions, but fear of what may come generally results in paralysis in the now. Similarly, when Frodo gripes that he'd rather live in some more comfortable, past age, Gandalf reminds him that too much nostalgia about the past leads to a sense of hopelessness in the present. Instead, Frodo needed to latch on to that "terrible chance" that lead the good guys to the tenuous, but hopeful position they find themselves in during Book V.
In other news, Gimli and Legolas exchange some banter and tell a story. I've already expressed what I believe to be the very poor plotting of relegating this story to a few off-screen descriptions, just for the sake of a surprise twist when Aragorn disembarks from the Umbar fleet in "Battle of the Pelennor Fields," especially considering that in exchange we were subjected to the dreck of "Muster of Rohan" and "Ride of the Rohirrim."
I will note one interesting exchange, however: Gimli and Legolas both note the desolation of the city, both in terms of regression of mechanical and technological skill, and in the arts and beautiful aspects of the people and the city itself.
GIMLI: "It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise."
LEGOLAS: "Yet seldom do they fail of their seed, and that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli."
GIMLI: "And yet come to naught in the end but might-have-beens, I guess."
LEGOLAS: "To that the Elves know not the answer."How depressing. But it certainly speaks to the human condition, and to our day -- like cockroaches, the human race will almost certainly endure, because of our innate intelligence (not necessarily wisdom) and adaptability. But will it be worth it? Or will the legacy of humankind simply be a litany of "might-have-beens?"
To that, the Elves, Tolkien, and I (a great trifecta, to be sure) know not the answer.
Eric's Thoughts (5/13/17)
As Ben points out, this chapter is awkwardly divided into two parts: one where Legolas and Gimli describe the behind-the-scenes employment of the ghosts, and another part where Gandalf, Aragon, and an elf-lord or two hang out in Aragon's tent and decide to launch a futile assault on Mordor to distract Sauron.
The first part I found tepid and yawn-inducing. Once again, Tolkien unravels his action scenes via flashback rather than in-the-moment narrative. Not effective. And the tale was less than compelling, and sometimes I had no idea what he was talking about. The gist I got was that the army of the dead scared the bad guys so much they jumped into the sea and drowned. Then, Aragon released the captives which then majestically rose up--at the last moment--to save Minas Tirith.
The hobbits are nothing more than foils for Gimli and Legolas to share that narrative, and offer no commentary or anything at all. The better narrative structure should have been to place this subplot in real-time alongside the siege of Gondor and cut back and forth between the two once or twice. Then, Aragon's sudden appearance wouldn't have been so deus-ex-machina-ish.
The second portion of the chapter was more interesting to me, and actually was one of my favorite chapters growing up in Return of the King besides the Scouring of the Shire. (And on a re-read, I think the latter half of this chapter still stands up as one of my favorite parts in the whole trilogy).
What happens in this excellent second act? Gandalf ponders the grim words of Denethor: You may triumph on the fields of the Pelennor for a day, but against the Power that has now arisen there is no victory.
Gandalf's reaction to Denethor's words is to not dismiss them as the ravings of a madman, but to analyze the words of a man that has seen the future and despaired. This chapter really develops the character of Gandalf--he does not pretend to be an all-knowing wizard that dictates what happens next, but instead reveals himself to be a shrewd logician.
In that regard, Gandalf spots a riddle in Denethor's words, unpacks the words, and arrives at a conclusion. The chapter guides the reader through Gandalf's thought processes on what they should do next: launch a futile assault of Mordor, likely to die, just so that Sauron's Eye is distracted from the real gambit. Really effective (and subtle) character development in my opinion.
Even more compelling, the characters themselves acknowledge this noble sacrifice does not fix everything, but merely offers a chance of a chance to rid the world of but one evil: "It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule."
Duty indeed. The stakes are clear. This is exactly why we are rooting for these characters.
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